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I'm getting close to putting the finish on a guitar I'm working on, and I'm planning to do a brushed-on varnish. This will be my first time doing a gloss varnish finish (the only other varnish finishing I've done has been satin, wipe-on; otherwise I've done french polishing or farmed out the finishing). I've reviewed just about every thread on varnishes I could find here on the OLF, as well as information from other sites, including varnish manufacturers sites. The varnishes I'm considering, based on the information and recommendations I've gathered, are:

Pratt and Lambert #38 http://www.prattandlambert.com/product-selector/homeowner/stains_clears/38_clear_varnish

Sherwin Williams Wood Classics FastDry Oil Varnish http://www.sherwin-williams.com/architects-specifiers-designers/products/catalog/wood-classics-fastdry-varnish/?referringCategory=interior-paint-coatings/wood-stains-sealers-clear-topcoats/

Murdoch's Uralkyd 500 http://www.sutherlandwelles.com/products/murdochs/murdochs-uralkyd-500.html

Epifanes Clear Varnish http://www.epifanes.com/home.htm

Behlen Rockhard Table Top Urethane Varnish http://www.shellac.net/rockhard_table_top_urethane_varnish.html (or maybe the older phenolic Rockhard if I can find some)

On this particular guitar, I wouldn't mind some amber color in the finish, as long as it is an attractive, warm orangey kind of amber, not like a more lemony yellow. I might add color if I choose one of the clearer varnishes. What the color will look like in 20 years, taking into account the natural darkening of the wood, is also important.

I do not have a buffing arbor, and don't plan to buy one soon, so I will be either rubbing out the finish entirely by hand, or using a hand held buffer/polisher. Relative ease of rubbing/polishing to a nice gloss is an important criterion (the issue of witness lines would be a factor in that, too).

Hardness is another priority. I wonder about the Epifanes for this reason. Although there are guitar makers who use it and like it, it is a spar varnish, which, by definition, is presumably softer. I would think that would make it harder to rub out (esp by hand) and more susceptible to dings and such in the long term. The Epifanes also has UV absorbers, which could be a concern, in that it might inhibit the natural darkening of the wood.

Ease of brushing, good self-leveling, and good adhesion are the other main properties I'm looking for. I wouldn't mind a longish drying/curing time, within reason. One concern there is the fact that this guitar has Indian rosewood back and sides, and I would rather not seal it with shellac or anything, since many suggest that the beauty of the wood will be best brought out by applying the varnish to the bare wood (maybe a more thinned coat first). So, if any of these varnishes do a better job of curing on rosewood, that would certainly be a big plus.

I'd greatly appreciate it if some of you with experience using these various varnishes would be willing to weigh in again with your current thoughts on them. Advantages, disadvantages? Stunning successes, horrible disasters?

I will likely be starting at least one more thread looking for some more detailed advice on application. For now, this is more about just the choice of varnish. Thanks in advance for your help!

I've got a build thread on the AGF for this guitar, if any of you would be interested: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285710

BTW, happy father's day! And I hope those of you who are at the ASIA Symposium (I'm not there ) are having a great time.

Thanks again -

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I don't have too much to add because I've only done one instrument with varnish but here's my experience.

I was planning on using the "hot rod your varnish" recipe for a wipe on in an old FWW magazine. Here's the thread I started back then: viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=37911&p=496966&hilit=varnish#p496678

I ended up abandoning the wipe on for spray on because I just couldn't eliminate enough brush marks. However, I did not go out and spend for a high dollar brush because this was supposed to be a wipe on solution.

In the end, spraying the P&L ended up in my wettest looking finish to date - I think I'm going to be sticking with this for a while. On the down side, in spite of adding a bit of japan drier to the mix, the finish was very slow to cure. When I released the instrument to the wild the finish looked great but, I just recently saw it and the pattern of the case had imprinted a little bit into the finish. I'm sure that if I re-final sanded and buffed it will look great but I'm just surprised that it still hadn't hardened fully. I was spraying coats one/day and perhaps that's a little too fast or something.

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http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Thanks for your input, Andy.

So, you used P&L #38 and had a problem with very slow curing. And it was NOT rosewood (or another oily tropical wood), correct? Was it P&L #38 right on the bare wood, or was there something under it? Did you thin the P&L (or add anything else to it other than the japan drier), and, if so, with what?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd,

I brushed on Behlen's Rockhard for 5 or 6 years and liked it a lot, though the tint was a little strong, and shrinkage was a little strange. I switched when the formulation was changed to urethane. I may try it sometime, but at the time, I was leery of the new persuasion. I tried Ace Interior gloss varnish, and found it satisfactory, but cure was slow, and it wasn't as hard as I would have liked. It was great to the touch, though. On recommendation from Laurent Brondel, I tried Epifane's and liked it a lot. I've only done one guitar with it, but I suspect there will be more. It brushes on better than anything else I've used, gets minimal witness lines when leveling, and buffs beautifully, not that wet high gloss, but a glowing sheen like nothing I've seen. The tint is a mild amber, and it cures in two weeks to a good hardness.

Laurent might have some info for you, though I believe he sprays it.

Pat

edit:

P.S. I did an EIR guitar with it, but with Z-poxy fill/seal. I don't think the Z-poxy degraded the depth one bit. It wets well, and is at least as clear as the varnish coats.

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

The wood was poplar. I sealed the wood with tinted shellac to give it some color. I found my notes and what I have written down is:

~3 oz P&L38
~1 to 1.5cc Japan drier
<1oz Thinner. I can't remember which thinner I used but it was probably mineral spirits.

My guess is that the coats simply needed more time to dry, but I also didn't want to get witness lines so I think there's a balance there.

Here's the funny thing - the finish was hard enough to buff to a very glossy shine but if I left it sitting on the bench over night, it would pick up the texture of what it was sitting on. This was very easily removed with the buff so I let it hang a little longer. I finished that instrument about 6 months ago and I think it's fully hardened now.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Thanks, Pat. Do you buff with a buffing arbor?

Andy, thanks for the follow up.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Yup, a past variety of the Stew Mac contraption.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Andy,

I had a similar experience after buffing two weeks out, but the texture was very faint, and it buffed out. The varnish seems to start to set soon after brushing, which minimizes runs, but is not terribly quick to reach full cure.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Todd,

About the varnish, I'm sorry that I can't help you. My current practice is to brush em6000 over z-poxy.

But about that build thread - holy-shmoly!! Sweet work man! That is going to be some guitar.

Phil

Todd,

About the varnish, I'm sorry that I can't help you. My current practice is to brush em6000 over z-poxy.

But about that build thread - holy-shmoly!! Sweet work man! That is going to be some guitar.

Phil

You can say that again Phil..... oh wait, you already did.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I now use only the Epifanes on all of my canoes and paddles. I've used in on several guitars as well. I like it a lot. Practice a bit to get your viscosity and application worked out to your satisfaction. Pay attention to the brush! Choose a good one. Fine bristles, not too soft nor too hard. You want it to carry the varnish and spread it evenly.

I've used the P&L 38 and its a good a forgiving varnish, not as much colour as the Epifanes.

I'd also look at Interlux varnish. They have several formulations which are very good.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Thanks for the replies, guys. All your input is much appreciated.

Phil, thanks!

So, Douglas and Pat, your experience is that the Epifanes, in spite of being a spar varnish, cures to a film of appropriate hardness for a guitar. Interesting. I'm still wondering how well it would work for rubbing out by hand. I'm not necessarily looking for a super high gloss. To me, the beauty of a gloss finish is in the way it acts as a "lens" to see deep into the wood. That's the effect I'm after, rather than the shininess itself.

Also still wondering about how the UV absorbers would affect the natural darkening of the wood over time. Any observations about that?

As for the brush, I intend to try using foam brushes. If I can get good results with those, it seems that it would save a lot of time and also save a lot on the use of solvent, which seems to me that it would more than make up for the waste involved in the disposable brushes.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Just in the interest of sharing information, the Epifanes Clear Varnish is formulated with tung oil and a combination of phenolic and alkyd resins, plus UV filters.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd, I'm using the Murdoch's Uralkyd 500 as a wipe on on a couple of guitars and am very impressed with it. Very hard, clear, flows great if you'd prefer to brush. I have wiped two Lutz tops, about 10 - 12 coats and will finish with 2000 - 3000 wet or dry. Mahogany back and sides I put an extra coat of epoxy (4) and sanded very smooth before wiping on. Such an easy finish technique but am not quite finished to evaluate final results. Can be buffed as well to a very high gloss. I use foam buffing wheels but will leave the tops sanded and may buff sides and backs. Best feature is it's hard, hard, hard and no to very low odor. Worth a sample try.

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Thank You and Best To All

Some anecdotal reports: A friend used #38 on a number of builds but abandoned it due to the previously reported imprinting. This might not be a big deal for one's personal instrument but would probably freak most buyers out. He then switched to Epiphanes and got a good look with it. It does stay very soft and flexible. He commented that if the varnish was dented or bumped and left an impression, 9 times out of 10 the varnish would heal itself by re-flowing back into the defect. I played a guitar by an amateur builder that was finished with Epiphanes all over and was struck by how dead it sounded. The guitar was carefully constructed and I can't necessarily assume there was too much finish on the soundboard, but that is a possibility. Something soft and self-healing goes against my understanding of acoustical finishes no matter what thickness.

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

Nice guitar, Todd!
I haven't been building lately,
as work is taking up my time,
but I have used various varnishes,
and they all differ a lot.
The 2 that come to mind are the S.W. wood classic,
which dried really fast,
but was too clear for me.
The one I liked the best is Old Masters spar marine varnish.
Nice amber color that put amazing depth to the flame maple back.
Really slow drying.
I think you'll have problems with the EIR with no sealer.
It probably won't dry.
DAMHIKT.
I would try on a sample piece first.
Laurent told me to do very thinned coats,
until you have good base,
takes a while.
I would seal with amber shellac,
then go to the varnish.

I use the foam brushes on paddles and canoe trim. I've used them on guitars but I don't like them much for that purpose. They don't "flow" as nicely as they kind of act like a squeegee and can "pull" the varnish as much as lay it down. On the canoes and paddles I'm looking for quite a bit of build, but on a guitar I am looking for a very uniform application. There is more control with a fine brush and thinner coats, even if it takes longer to apply them all.

You should experiment with different brushes and viscosities to get your procedure worked out.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Larry - mind if I ask how you are thinning the U-500 for wiping? Have you had any issues with witness lines? Any wisdom you can share for someone who wants to try wiping it?

I started doing some experimenting with it a month or two ago but got side tracked. I need to get back to it but based on what I've done so far I agree with your assessment...it's easy to work with, levels well, very low odor and cures quite hard compared to other varnishes.

I'm using paint thinner, and the company recommends no more than 20% by volume. There's another thread detailing a little more info but it seems pretty forgiving. With too little thinner it gets too gummy quickly but if you get it right it goes on very well.

I had a couple scrap pieces of Mahogany and tried a few different schedules, including wet sanding with the 500 to build a slurry to pore fill. Ultimately pore filling with epoxy popped the grain the best and on the hog I have I ended up, as I stated above, with an extra coat of epoxy to get the pores completely filled then I level sanded a little more than usual to get a really flat surface.

I sanded through a little in a couple places but the 500 wets out almost identically to the epoxy so the coat of wipe on blended the wood color nicely. Wipe on, of course, will probably not build to help fill any un-filled pores. The idea of this schedule is developing into a hard epoxy undercoat, leveled and very smooth, then wiping on thin coats to develop a finish coat.

I'm not going for a high gloss finish, I'm looking for a way to simplify the finish process and end up with a smooth, hard surface. It looks like it will end up a little glossier than satin but still not finished to fully evaluate.

On the Lutz top I 'sanded' in a top coat of 500 with a Scotch Brite pad to smooth completely. I've not quite finished but the top, after 10 - 12 coats the grain looks very nice and I experimented with sanding with 2000 wet/dry and it was just what I was looking for which is, again, NOT a high gloss finish. I am looking for a very thin, hard surface for the top and so far very encouraging.

No witness lines at all and new finish coats are supposed to 'blend' into previous coats. Still not done and if you're looking for high gloss, buffed and polished finish I can't help, just not interested in that kind of finish for now.

Trying not to hijack this thread but if you want to PM me and I'll share some more info and pics if you're interested.

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Thank You and Best To All

Larry - thanks for the response. Good point about hijacking. I'll shoot you a PM. Apologies to Todd if I took us off course a bit.

If you are going the petroleum thinner route I would highly encourage you to use Gamsol:
http://www.gamblincolors.com/solvents/index.html
"Paint Thinner" can be any number of solvents, some of which are not very friendly. Gamsol is very expensive compared to hardware store brands, but no more expensive than Everclear or Uralkyd 500 for that matter.

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

I use the foam brushes and had much the same experience as Doug. I get better control on the edges with the foam brushes, but not on the larger surfaces. I've tweaked thinning to try to compensate with some success. Epifane's seems to set quickly to a sort of gel well before it goes tack-free, so it has great resistance to runs.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Interesting article on wipe on varnish

http://liutaiomottola.com/PrevPubs/WipingVarnish/WipingVarnish.htm

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Thanks for that Bob,

I read another article (can't find it) that recommended blue shop towels for wipe on's and they work great, cheap, easy disposable.

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Thank You and Best To All